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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 19, 2012 7:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: DEAD women...

"...Lemieux estimates that of the five thousand or so e-mails he’s received in his role as archivist, only five have been from women..."

Above from the New Yorker article; fig'd we'd discussed it so often it could stand a post/thread of its own...

Well? Thoughts?

Math factoid for the day: Do Rose & Ring provide strong inference that there are actually 4995 other posters like Arb, Cosmic Chuck and me?

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Poster: wisconsindead Date: Nov 20, 2012 12:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

good topic.

Whatever the reason, women seem to be ambivalent of the details in dead listening. I know of two "dead head" girls. They both love the dead but are no where near the point of searching for new great dead or listening closely for the intricacies that drive me and many of us here wild.

I had a friend tell me about an journal article he read that essentially stated men are typically better listeners. I think part of the method was asking the person to identify the amount of instruments and following specific instruments during the song. I know those that are more musically inclined get much more out of dead than those who are not.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Nov 20, 2012 1:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

I've read similar things - though perhaps it's better to say not that men are "better listeners," but that they are often more "analytical listeners."
Your small sampling of deadhead girls who "love the dead but are nowhere near the point of searching for new great dead or listening closely for the intricacies" rings very true, I think.
And male deadheads are vastly more likely to collect walls of tapes or CDs of Dead shows... That kind of music collecting seems more like a male trait to me, as well as closely analyzing the music in a way that many male writers do.

The flip side is that rock or jazz music is very male-dominated as far as musicians, too. So perhaps it's natural that the audience reflects that. The Dead may be illustrating a cultural trend that's larger than just how people listen to music, or how many single people go to shows, etc.

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Poster: wisconsindead Date: Nov 20, 2012 1:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

Yes more analytical listeners would be a more proper way to phrase it.

I personally think it is a phenotype (a visible expression) of brain chemistry and structure. Out of all of my dead head friends I am basically the only one who really pursues this music. I do have a buddy who is close to me in his ability to hear things, I just dont think he catagorizes and organizes all of it like i choose to do. Clementine is the only person I've met who really pursues this music like I do. In fact I'd say he's probably even a bigger dead head than I.

All that being said, I think most of the guys still lack what in my opinion makes someone a true dead nut, like you LIA lol. I wonder if men are more prone to collect than women... Tough to say. There are cultural and societal influences which drive different trends in music listening for men vs. women. All in all I still think that brain structure and chemistry is the major component of this discrepancy of listening between males and females.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Nov 20, 2012 6:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

Men are definitely more prone to collect than women, in certain areas... Among people I know, some women collect shoes, or ornaments - whereas some men collect vinyl albums, or movies. (I can't say I often saw women running those old record stores either - tended to be some crusty old guy, or in bigger stores, guys who were in bands...)
I'd say the Dead definitely inspired male-type traits among their fans - such as, say, collecting every show, or obsessively writing about them, or compiling huge setlist archives. Female Deadheads, in comparison, are a rather silent minority!
To look at it another way - how many female tapers did anyone see at a Dead show? A single one?

The 'jazzy' side of the Dead figures in this, too... There are plenty of rock bands that attract lots of female fans. (Looks are probably a factor!) The Dead weren't really known as a 'dance band,' I think (other than their core fans - outsiders often despised 'deadhead dancing') - but they were known for endless instrumental noodling.
The jazz field has far fewer female fans than rock (as far as I know), and the Dead probably drew the same kind of male attention as the famous jazz players, while repelling the ladies who wanted to dance to pop hits. That's just a theory, though.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Nov 20, 2012 7:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Tapers

Joani Walker. Judy Lee. That's two tapers. Others than Betty :-)

Judy and Ken Lee worked as a team; what about Joanie Walker? Her tapes are always with Paul Scotton.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Nov 20, 2012 8:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Tapers

I suspect Ken was the driving force behind the Ken & Judy tapes (though Judy, I think, was the one who actually held the microphones).
Joani Walker - good one; I don't know whether she taped by herself or as a team w/ Paul.
Betty, of course, started out as part of the Bob & Betty team as Matthews trained her, and eventually got skilled enough to start taping on her own.

Though they weren't tapers per se, I should also mention Ron & Susan Wickersham, who founded the Alembic music-equipment company along with Bear. She wrote this little history of the company -
http://www.alembic.com/family/history.html
You can tell right away there must have been some bad blood between her & Bear because she does not mention him at all! Despite the company being his idea. (See also the brief comments by Bear here - http://archive.org/post/240947/alembic-history )

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Poster: CharlieMiller Date: Nov 24, 2012 11:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Tapers

Paul Scotton is not a taper, he's friend with Joani and she gave him her tapes when she became ill.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Nov 25, 2012 12:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Tapers

Sorry to hear about her being ill. She's a real pioneer and must be an amazing woman. Her work is really appreciated, and it's neat to know that she's the taper independently.

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Poster: ColdRain108 Date: Nov 20, 2012 2:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

seems to go hand-in-hand with the bong hit thing...Almost all the girls I knew 25 years ago have completely stopped puffin' the dragon...while only .00000001% of the same sampling of guys have stopped that habit.

Might be brain chemistry...

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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Nov 23, 2012 7:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

I think you make some pretty interesting points regarding the biological differences about perception of music. It may be hard to have this conversation without resorting to stereotypes or even sexism, but the problem is my experience is pretty much exactly the same.

I think a more accurate way to put it also is that men are better listeners when it comes to different elements of music than women. Like LIA says, men might be more analytical listeners, in that we appreciate the elements of music that have to do with instruments and instrumental interaction far more. This seems to give many men a more emotional response than the aspects of music that give women this response.

I think many women respond much more to the lyrical content or the 'feel' of a song, rather than the individual instruments underpinning it.

For example my gf (and the vast majority of women I know) don't usually have much of a response to long jams or the instrumental parts of a song or get super into 'jam bands' or jazz. She rarely talks about it or discusses the merits of it; she has basically come out and said before that she feels that type of music doesn't really have all that much (or as much) merit. But put on one of her favorite artists like Bright Eyes or Ani DiFranco and she will go on and on about the symbolism and lyrical complexities and meanings and messages of the songs, whereas I could generally give a rat's ass about that type of stuff, and a lot of it goes right over my head.

This post was modified by clementinescaboose on 2012-11-23 15:24:34

This post was modified by clementinescaboose on 2012-11-23 15:27:03

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Poster: RBNW....new and improved! Date: Nov 19, 2012 2:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

this isnt gonna turn into a stephanie brown thread i hope...

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Poster: user unknown Date: Nov 19, 2012 3:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

What's the problem with Ms. Brown? I kinda miss her. And, better Stephanie than "skies". Her I don't miss so much. In fact, I think only Sir Wm. Tell misses the Frenchwoman.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 19, 2012 3:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

Holy Crap! Forgot about the Ms. Brown biz!? But, not skies...all I could think of after a few posts with her was the line from Shane: "Nothing I say pleases you!" (not that it's a great line by ANY stretch, but I just happened to think about it given how true it was in my interactions with the French B. That's B as in "baguette", eh?).

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Nov 19, 2012 9:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

skies is a frunt.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Nov 19, 2012 12:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

Well, that's funny. One of the five was from Althea, and I wouldn't be surprised if I know who one of the other women was, so I guess we're an elite group :)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 19, 2012 2:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

Yeah, that was funny; it made me think of the times we talked about how many posters vs readers there might be at the Forum (and how few gals there are here), and then how few were part of the various "sub-scenes" (tapers, early era heads, etc.). The "email" data are suggestive that the bias (male sex ratio) continues today (perhaps even growing).

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Poster: user unknown Date: Nov 19, 2012 3:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

Funny...Ha Ha or Funny...Strange?

Don't you think that many women find the behavior of the average American male Deadhead to be just a bit off-putting.

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Poster: ColdRain108 Date: Nov 19, 2012 4:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

that assumes that this site is populated by "the average American male Deadhead".



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Poster: user unknown Date: Nov 19, 2012 5:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

I think we have a slightly better than 1000 to 1 man/woman ratio here at this site. Thatay be an indication that we are not "average American male Deadheads".

And given the descriptions in the NY'er article, I'm not sure many here are Deadheads as described by the author of the article.

This post was modified by user unknown on 2012-11-20 01:54:06

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Nov 19, 2012 6:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

Well, I'm pretty sure I've been guilty of a flappy Snoopy dance.

The ratio during shows was definitely better than 1000 to 1. But then, of those, what percentage were there because of some boyfriend they have long since disowned? And what percentage of the remainder had their own hissy tapes?

We can be pretty sure that not many here are currently "Deadheads as described by the author of the article," but some percentage probably were in the past. And it's a good bet that most of us are Deadheads LIKE the author of the article, a self-confessed hissy tape worshipper. The IA's cranky reviewers turned out to include his friend, one "crazycatpeekin"!

Btw here's a crowd pic from '82. What would you say? 10:1? 20:1?

http://www.mediaspin.com/joel/grateful_dead230582_crowd3.jpg

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Nov 20, 2012 5:32am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

Ah, yes this looks familiar, in fact I think I might recognize a couple of people. Or maybe not - maybe we just all looked like that.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Nov 19, 2012 7:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

Actually that pic looks more like 4:1 or 5:1 to me.
Which is still pretty male-dominated. Was it really like that at the shows? I know this has been discussed in a previous thread... I've noticed in '70s Dead-show pics that it looked like mostly male crowds as well, but figured it improved later....at least due to the girlfriend presence... (But, as you mentioned, many of those might've gone for the guy, not for the Dead.)

And as far as geeky tape collectors, especially those who frequent internet forums, well, that's probably more like 5000:1...

I guess as Pigpen would say, the Dead scene is "a man's world!" (All those poor guys with their hands in their pockets in his Lovelights probably couldn't have found enough women at the shows to talk to if they tried!)

Crazycatpeekin was actually a decent reviewer (considering he only reviewed early '80s shows). Fortunately the author's old friend didn't turn out to be jboyaquar!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 20, 2012 5:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

RE: was it really like this at the shows?

For 74-82 it was; although to be honest, like the set lists, I have a REALLY hard time imagining in my mind's eye what exactly the scene was like scanning the tops of heads at Winterland...

I was always with a girlfriend so that's a bias; but, it wasn't the case that I was bumping into hotties left and right that couldn't help but get my attn...ahem; I say it that way because here in AZ at the local uni's, it IS the case that this would be ABSOLUTELY unavoidable the past few decades. But, this may be part of the 70s vs now, and the Berkeley Gals vs the rest of the world....suffice it to say the stereotypical gals at Cal in the 70s were as you imagine. Don't get me wrong--I loved them dearly, and count many among my friends today, but fashionistas they were not (unless you consider covering up with Army Navy rejects a fashion statement, not to mention the smell and the hair, though they had less of both than me).

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Nov 20, 2012 5:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

I'm trying to think if there's some reason for a self-selection bias in these photos, or at least in the photos chosen for posting (all of them, I mean, the general mass of GD photos from years past that one finds online). I mean might there be a reason these collections are skewed toward the mostly-men photos? They just seem really extremely skewed. There were more women than that!

Arguing against that is the fact that men certainly do like to take pictures of women. But, maybe not if so many were as WT describes and, well, not fashionistas. I wasn't a fashionista by any means but I didn't wear Army Navy rejects and I didn't smell, I swear :) and neither did my GD concert-going female friends.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Nov 20, 2012 5:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

From perusing many of these pictures, the conclusion seems inescapable that men vastly outnumbered women at the shows. I can't help wondering why I don't really remember it that way. How would I not have noticed that?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 20, 2012 6:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

Yeah, that's why I hedged so much in my answer...I guess I can at least say that I am relatively confident that we (the guys, and as we've talked about before, my serious head--taper friends were ALL guys) didn't ever make comments like "hey, John Smith hooked up at the concert" or "boy, his break up before the Winterland run worked out perfectly as he had so many to choose from..." or whatever. Obviously, if we had been going to a bar or other such site/activity this would have been the "plan".

Of course, this is only stating that concerts were not ideal pick up locations...

I do think it all comes down to the girls generally only went to these things with guys, and yet, single guys went on their own.

I would say I didn't think it was a good idea for my sister to go to Winterland at night, with her girl friends, unless she was with me and a few other guys, so that might have part of it..?

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Nov 20, 2012 7:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

Only we didn't say "hook up" :)

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Nov 20, 2012 7:10am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

I think it's exactly that: Girls generally went with guys, and yet single guys went on their own.

I did go to a few Dead shows with only one girlfriend. But as a rule, and not just GD, if I went to a concert I'd go with guys or a group that included guys.

I do recall that hardcore Deadheads tended to be heavily guys. I will say, though, that I don't recall sitting at shows thinking, "Wow, hardly any women!" I think it just looked normal. I doubt the ratio was really much different at blues bars, or punk clubs, or whatever. Probably not too many women in mosh pits.

It may just be that when women go out with women friends, we're inclined to maybe go to a restaurant and talk. When guys go out with their friends, they "do something" with them ... go to a sports game, toss a ball around, go to a bar (loudness no problem!), go to a concert. Obviously a generalization, but still, I'm betting there's something to that.

This post was modified by AltheaRose on 2012-11-20 15:10:47

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Nov 20, 2012 12:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

You'd think there would be scholarly articles on this subject... "How Pigpen Confronted the Gender Imbalance At Grateful Dead Shows," or, "Did They Really Share The Women?"

While my mental image of early Dead shows is full of twirling women, little kids getting lost etc, perhaps this is just because they were more likely to be photographed or noticed!

There are probably a few social reasons why men would so outnumber women there. It's also quite likely that more men than women like the Dead, especially in a hardcore tape-collecting way (as opposed to a casual "let's go dancing & have fun" way).

Checking my Deadbase X, I see this response to the deadhead survey:
"As always, our respondents were overwhelmingly male: 181 men vs. 20 women."
Deadbase concluded, "Apparently responding to ridiculously detailed questionnaires is a male thing." (Interestingly, Deadbase did NOT say, "this reflects what we see at shows...")
The female respondents were also much more likely to say that "my significant other is a deadhead" - for most of the men, the answer was very negative!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 20, 2012 2:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

As you may have noticed, I tempered my response given I am now convinced that I am "mis-remembering" negative comments by the band about the Beatles (save the one by Phil, which wasn't all that negative)...as a scientist, I should have known better than to trust my memory (I do think that others, like Slick and Katner?, may have said such things in interviews...? SF bands in general downplaying the "mainstream success, etc., and I turned this into "the DEAD in general" or some such).

Nontheless, I am shocked that this sex ratio biz never really registered with me; the comment about my sister wasn't due to my having decided "jeezzz, there are 5000 raving single guys here!" or some such (more the location of Winterland, frankly).

Funny that now I think of Ring and Rose as just like "us", equally interested in the historical, social, and other trivia that we all discuss here, so in the safety of "ether space" I am a little surprised that the ratio isn't trending the other direction now, ya know? That's why I mentioned "maybe even growing?" as in more biased (amazingly!?)....

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Nov 20, 2012 8:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

Then there's the question of whether women may hear or respond to some aspects of the Dead's music differently than guys do.
I'd tend to think not; that it would be too big a generalization. But then I recall Weir's cheesy rock-star hamming, which I dislike, but the ladies seemed to eat it up...at least, the two represented on this forum! I don't recall any guys calling Weir "cute" - makes me wonder if gals saw Garcia differently, too...

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Poster: William Tell Date: Nov 21, 2012 6:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

I DO recall tidbits on this issue, given my little sister, it was inevitable: she and her girlfriends (they were 16 when they first tagged along, 25 or so in the 80s when they stopped) LOVED Bob, and had no real interest in ANY one else in the band.

When we snuck into to see Kingfish at a sm bar in the East Bay in 75, all the gals with the band raved about how nice Bob was, and how the others were jerks of one kind or another...these were girls with the band, roadies, etc., moreso than groupies. Of course, only Bob was present from the DEAD during this hiatus yr.

Thus, we fig'd Bob was still the favorite thru the 70s.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Nov 21, 2012 7:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

Interesting - Weir gets the solid female vote!
The band must've been aware of that, so from an audience-pleasing perspective, perhaps that's why they let him do his thing so much...

I wonder if, before Weir stepped up, Pigpen was the band's "sex symbol"... It hardly seems possible; I've assumed Pigpen catered more to male fans with his macho bluesman approach, but I don't really know. Maybe he had adoring girls in the audience, too.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Nov 19, 2012 10:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

Uh, I think you're counting some long-haired guys ...

Actually, come to think of it, rock concerts probably did tend to be guy territory. Even if the GD only got 1:10, I bet that was more than Zeppelin or metal bands or you name it.

Here's a pic of Woodstock. Hmmm, that iconic album cover and fantasies of hippie chicks notwithstanding, I'm seeing a lot more guys than gals here:

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071215110843/desencyclopedie/images/a/a4/Woodstock_Crowd.jpg


This post was modified by AltheaRose on 2012-11-20 06:26:17

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Nov 19, 2012 10:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

My goodness, there's hardly a girl in sight! Imagine the poor fellow coming to the show looking for the fabled hippie chicks. (Maybe they were all out swimming in the river...)

In that '82 pic, it looks like there are at least 20 women in there somewhere, and not much more than 100 guys. That's practically gender equality compared to hard-rock shows of the day! And probably better than it had been 10 years earlier...

Didn't you post other early '80s crowd pics a while back?

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Nov 20, 2012 4:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

One was this site. The pics won't embed easily and I'm too lazy to do the whole html thing.

Look hard for the women on 6/20/83 ...

http://jranderson.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/G0000gkiVzgiQPFI/I0000MxojxuEOxp4/2

Wonder why crowds in the Midwest sound so enthusiastic when they finally get inside? THIS is why! Keep looking for those women on 3/5/81 ... (Actually, you can't see much for the jackets. I just like the picture.)

http://jranderson.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Grateful-Dead-1981-03-Stanley-Theater-Pittsburgh/G00005VQHuVi8KPc/I0000CU.NbVOk5T0/C0000tgTHdLoBI30

Camped out before 7/31/74 ... women included. (At least maybe more than an Alice Cooper show.)

http://jranderson.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/Grateful-Dead-1974-07-31-Dillon-Stadium-Hartford-CT/G00006sNJuuXUkdI/I0000GCbfpqjVX2A/C0000tgTHdLoBI30

It's a fun site to scroll through. Here's the GD gallery.

http://jranderson.photoshelter.com/gallery-collection/Grateful-Dead-Concert-Photographs-Shows-from-1971-to-Present-Day-Member-Bands/C0000tgTHdLoBI30



This post was modified by AltheaRose on 2012-11-20 12:38:37

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Nov 20, 2012 5:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

Those photos make me feel nostalgic, and old.

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Poster: rdenirojb87 Date: Nov 23, 2012 2:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

"In that '82 pic, it looks like there are at least 20 women in there somewhere, and not much more than 100 guys. That's practically gender equality compared to hard-rock shows of the day!"

Not Motley Crue shows lol. But, probably because most of those women were hoping to get brought backstage. As hair metal bands started to become popular, a very large percentage of the crowd was female at those shows.

This post was modified by rdenirojb87 on 2012-11-23 22:38:26

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Poster: Deadhead225 Date: Nov 20, 2012 5:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

I would say that '82 Pic is an accurate representation of the %. I went to an all male Univ. and spent a lot of time at a few all female colleges. All had Deadhead contingents. At one in particular there was a large Deadhead population. I went to shows with a lot of them, and they would go to multiple shows. That was early to mid 80s, & I think the population increased from there.

Lotta wimmins here in this Alpine 87 crowd:

Photobucket

This post was modified by Deadhead225 on 2012-11-20 13:53:25

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Poster: clementinescaboose Date: Nov 23, 2012 7:10am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...

Awesome pic! Seems like that place hasn't changed a bit...

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Poster: ColdRain108 Date: Nov 19, 2012 11:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: DEAD women...



http://www.gocomics.com/pickles/2012/06/21